Comments on: Kinds of Quagmires http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2003/09/01/kinds-of-quagmires/ Sociology and other distractions Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:33:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Kieran Healy’s Weblog » Blog Archive » Varieties of Civil War http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2003/09/01/kinds-of-quagmires/comment-page-1/#comment-2282 Kieran Healy’s Weblog » Blog Archive » Varieties of Civil War Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:25:09 +0000 http://www.kieranhealy.org/wordpress/?p=501#comment-2282 [...] This reminds me of something I meant to say the other week. In much the same way as we’re not supposed to call Iraq a quagmire, we’re also not supposed to say it’s on the brink of—or already stuck in to—civil war. It’s worth bearing in mind that just as there are different kinds of quagmires there are also varieties of civil war. An example familiar to me—with the usual caveats that this just meant as an illustrative comparison, not a strong correspondence—is the Irish Civil War of 1922—23. It was a conflict between Free State forces (the government, who supported the Anglo-Irish Treaty that ended the War of Independence), and the opponents of the treaty, including a majority of the old IRA. [...] [...] This reminds me of something I meant to say the other week. In much the same way as we’re not supposed to call Iraq a quagmire, we’re also not supposed to say it’s on the brink of—or already stuck in to—civil war. It’s worth bearing in mind that just as there are different kinds of quagmires there are also varieties of civil war. An example familiar to me—with the usual caveats that this just meant as an illustrative comparison, not a strong correspondence—is the Irish Civil War of 1922—23. It was a conflict between Free State forces (the government, who supported the Anglo-Irish Treaty that ended the War of Independence), and the opponents of the treaty, including a majority of the old IRA. [...]

]]> By: Crooked Timber » » Varieties of Civil War http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2003/09/01/kinds-of-quagmires/comment-page-1/#comment-2281 Crooked Timber » » Varieties of Civil War Fri, 31 Mar 2006 16:28:40 +0000 http://www.kieranhealy.org/wordpress/?p=501#comment-2281 [...] This reminds me of something I meant to say the other week. In much the same way as we’re not supposed to call Iraq a quagmire, we’re also not supposed to say it’s on the brink of—or already stuck in to—civil war. It’s worth bearing in mind that just as there are different kinds of quagmires there are also varieties of civil war. An example familiar to me—with the usual caveats that this just meant as an illustrative comparison, not a strong correspondence—is the Irish Civil War of 1922—23. It was a conflict between Free State forces (the government, who supported the Anglo-Irish Treaty that ended the War of Independence), and the opponents of the treaty, including a majority of the old IRA. For present purposes, what’s worth noting is that while the conflict was relatively short it was also vicious, especially towards the end, and especially amongst the elites. There was a cycle of execution, retaliation and retribution both in the field and against prisoners. A relatively large proportion of the political class was killed. What did not happen, however, was something like the American Civil War, where large armies repeatedly confronted one another on the battlefield. Moreover, life, as always, went on. The Irish Civil War was largely confined to active combatants, and casualties were heavily concentrated in the leadership. For instance (I’m open to correction here), the Free State army was of course targeted but its unarmed police force was generally not subject to attacks. Less than eight years after the war ended the government peacefully handed over power to the party directly descended from the Anti-Treaty forces. For years afterwards many of those in Parliament looked across the aisle at the murderers of their fathers, uncles or brothers. [...] [...] This reminds me of something I meant to say the other week. In much the same way as we’re not supposed to call Iraq a quagmire, we’re also not supposed to say it’s on the brink of—or already stuck in to—civil war. It’s worth bearing in mind that just as there are different kinds of quagmires there are also varieties of civil war. An example familiar to me—with the usual caveats that this just meant as an illustrative comparison, not a strong correspondence—is the Irish Civil War of 1922—23. It was a conflict between Free State forces (the government, who supported the Anglo-Irish Treaty that ended the War of Independence), and the opponents of the treaty, including a majority of the old IRA. For present purposes, what’s worth noting is that while the conflict was relatively short it was also vicious, especially towards the end, and especially amongst the elites. There was a cycle of execution, retaliation and retribution both in the field and against prisoners. A relatively large proportion of the political class was killed. What did not happen, however, was something like the American Civil War, where large armies repeatedly confronted one another on the battlefield. Moreover, life, as always, went on. The Irish Civil War was largely confined to active combatants, and casualties were heavily concentrated in the leadership. For instance (I’m open to correction here), the Free State army was of course targeted but its unarmed police force was generally not subject to attacks. Less than eight years after the war ended the government peacefully handed over power to the party directly descended from the Anti-Treaty forces. For years afterwards many of those in Parliament looked across the aisle at the murderers of their fathers, uncles or brothers. [...]

]]> By: John Isbell http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2003/09/01/kinds-of-quagmires/comment-page-1/#comment-2214 John Isbell Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.kieranhealy.org/wordpress/?p=501#comment-2214 Great post, which IIRC Calpundit links to. This is great. From now on, I'll go round making messes, and then everyone else has to offer to help me clean up, even without my asking. For them to do otherwise would be childish and irresponsible. Great post, which IIRC Calpundit links to.
This is great. From now on, I’ll go round making messes, and then everyone else has to offer to help me clean up, even without my asking. For them to do otherwise would be childish and irresponsible.

]]> By: The Road to Surfdom http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2003/09/01/kinds-of-quagmires/comment-page-1/#comment-2215 The Road to Surfdom Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.kieranhealy.org/wordpress/?p=501#comment-2215 <strong>Driven to fears</strong> As perhaps you can imagine, flying around on jets with your family (as I've been doing a bit of lately)... Driven to fears

As perhaps you can imagine, flying around on jets with your family (as I’ve been doing a bit of lately)…

]]> By: The Road to Surfdom http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2003/09/01/kinds-of-quagmires/comment-page-1/#comment-2216 The Road to Surfdom Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.kieranhealy.org/wordpress/?p=501#comment-2216 <strong>Driven to fears</strong> As perhaps you can imagine, flying around on jets with your family (as I've been doing a bit of lately)... Driven to fears

As perhaps you can imagine, flying around on jets with your family (as I’ve been doing a bit of lately)…

]]> By: The Road to Surfdom http://www.kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2003/09/01/kinds-of-quagmires/comment-page-1/#comment-2217 The Road to Surfdom Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000 http://www.kieranhealy.org/wordpress/?p=501#comment-2217 <strong>Rooted</strong> Once again the issue of "roots causes" and terrorism has come up, this time in a comments thread over at Rob Corr's place. It seems the biggest sin you can commit in the minds of certain rightwing fanatics is to... Rooted

Once again the issue of “roots causes” and terrorism has come up, this time in a comments thread over at Rob Corr’s place. It seems the biggest sin you can commit in the minds of certain rightwing fanatics is to…

]]>